John, Stephanie & Ryan: How to be a Supportive Sibling of Someone with OCD

Episode 21: John, Stephanie, & Ryan: How to be a supportive sibling to someone with OCD

SO MANY THANKS to these wonderful individuals for coming on to share their personal experiences of what it's like to live as siblings of someone who has OCD. This episode revealed so many of the issues many of us face - as people who LIVE with OCD - and those that are desperate to support us and help us get better - and how communication or fears or shame can get in the way of being able to meet each other. I loved how each person had a different viewpoint and especially how they approached this, all while everyone wanting one thing - to help make things better and easier. 

Loved ones as supporters may seem SO EASY, right? Just understand OCD and do what needs to be done! That's just not the case with this disorder. So many of us wear a mask, we hide the experience, we shield our loved ones, and we cover up the degree of suffering we have to avoid feeling like a burden or weak or unworthy. How do we communicate this? How do we convey just how hard and consuming this is, all while making sure we are still loved, accepted, and not looked at differently? These are a few of the things we touched on today. 

I really hope to have more of these interactive discussions on this podcast. The raw and vulnerable talk about what it's really like from ALL angles. 

Many, many thanks to Stephanie, Ryan, and John for sharing your stories and for making me an 'honorary' member of your family! Being with you during this recording helped me feel loved and accepted, so I know that you all are doing your parts as a cohesive and supportive family not only to make John feel supported, but anyone that you encounter who may struggle with mental health issues to help them feel validated, normalized, and accepted - exactly as they are. 

If you are in need of a community of people who can help you feel more accepted, less alone, and more connected to people who understand, please check out my online community for weekly support, monthly classes and events at https://the-ocd-support-community.co.mn

If this podcast inspires, supports, and gives you hope and you'd like to support us monthly or sponsor us, please visit our patreon page and become a member. Your contribution will help us continue the podcast and help us provide even more resources for our community! https://www.patreon.com/intrusivethoughtsunmasked

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Intrusive Thoughts and Masked, the podcast where we explore what it's really like to live with intrusions, the emotional landscape that comes with them, and the common experiences so many of us share. I'm Christy Hodges. I created this podcast to bring lived experience into the light for those navigating intrusions and mental rituals with OCD. My hope is that here you can finally take off the mask we so often wear to hide this disorder. I want you to feel seen, understood, and accepted exactly as you are. Welcome to episode 21. In this episode, we are talking about what it is like to be siblings of someone who lives with OCD. This is a category that isn't often talked about, and it is my honor and privilege to be able to talk to Stephanie, Ryan, who are the siblings of John who lives with OCD. This is a very casual interview. It was a very long recording, by the way, as it condense it down, but it was so much fun and brought so much insight to both myself, the siblings, and John. John's gonna share a little bit of a message with you before we get started, and I hope you enjoyed the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Today you're gonna be listening to a podcast sit-down that I had with my family and Christy to discuss OCD and how it affects the family. When Christy asked whether my sister and brother would be willing to speak about OCD, I was excited for the opportunity to have an open conversation with two of the people closest to me about a disorder that, until my diagnosis, was unknown to myself and my family gave us a chance to process what OCD actually is, reflect on how it's affected each of us, and most importantly, discuss the role it's played in our relationship over the years. After the conversation, my siblings and I walked away with a few important realizations that I'm just gonna touch briefly on right now. First, communication is necessary. One of the most difficult aspects of OCD is how invisible it can be. I don't have to tell you that. You experience it on a regular basis. Many of us become so accustomed to wearing this mask that even the people who know us best may have no idea we're struggling. We often tell everyone we're fine, while internally we're experiencing one of the worst spirals of our life. Reaching out matters. Whether it's family, friends, a therapist, or even someone you meet through an OCD support group or community event. People cannot support us if they don't know what we're carrying. Of course, communication is easier said than done. Tell me about it. I know. When your OCD involves taboo intrusive thoughts, shame and fear can make vulnerability feel impossible. Opening up means confronting the fear of being misunderstood or judged. I would love to say that this conversation instantly solved every communication challenge that my siblings and I have, but it didn't, and that's okay. Improving communication obviously takes time, patience, and vulnerability. Something that I've struggled with for most of my life, even with the people I love the most. What this converg conversation did do was create a foundation for us to keep talking. Second, we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt. During our conversation, I shared that for a long time it felt easier to talk to my sister about OCD than my brother. Part of that came from my own assumptions about masculinity and the belief that men aren't supposed to show vulnerability or talk openly about mental health. Looking back, I realized that those assumptions weren't fair. The truth is, my brother was just as willing as my sister to listen, support me, and just be there. It was my own fear that kept me from opening up. That realization reminded me how important it is not to let our assumptions about other people become barriers to connection. Finally, it's important to establish healthy boundaries. Supporting someone with OCD does not mean accommodating every compulsion or becoming responsible for easing every anxious moment. Likewise, living with OCD means recognizing that our loved ones cannot be the frontline defense. Boundaries create clear expectations for recovery rather than reinforcing the demands that come with OCD. They allow our family members to be involved without becoming consumed and remind the person with OCD that they have support, but they are ultimately the only ones who can battle this disorder. Looking back, I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation with my siblings. It reminded me that OCD does not just affect the person living with it, it touches the entire family. A big thank you to Chrissy for setting this up. You'll see how important this was to me. I think there's times where we're probably a little surface level and vanilla, but I also think that there are times where we really opened up and and you'll be able to see that. So thank you, Chrissy, and a big thank you to Stephanie and Ryan. I love you guys. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do this for me. Hope you guys enjoy the episode.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

I think for us, when we found out about the diagnosis, it was not really a shock to me. I know that he always had some struggles in the past with mental illness, whether that be anxiety or depression. And I just assumed, you know, that is his brain chemistry. He's speaking to therapists and psychiatrists and on medicine. And as long as he is doing his daily upkeep of routine, then he's fine. But I think when OCD came into the picture, it was more of a shock of like, okay, we have something that we need to take seriously and not fix, but be like a helicopter parent to him. At least that's kind of what I feel is my job. And not that it's a job, but it's more so I notice signs of when his hair is not shaved and he doesn't have his bald head, when his beard is all out of tack. I know that he's going through something, and maybe that is not a hundred percent accurate, but that's like a sign that I know that he's kind of getting too relaxed with things, and he might be in a cycle of his thoughts. So I'll get on his case being like, When are you gonna shave your head? And then he'll outlash me, being like, I know, I knew you were gonna say something. I'm like, Okay, well, I want to see that head shave soon because this is not your look. So that's like a sign to me. It was like I said, it was a big shock just because we didn't know how much he was going through and how much he was battling and suffering at that time. But for me, it was just like, okay, let's get into action. What are the support groups? What are doctors' appointments we need to make? Let's get him outside moving, let's get him out of the house, just different things like that. And I think for me, I still do that. Right now it's hard because he's studying a lot, but it's like, okay, went like, let's get dinner, let's go to a coffee shop, or let let me come home and we'll hang out. I also think a lot of people deal with they came from a perfect family. How, how do you have, how are you suffering through this? Why we gave you everything in life, especially with an Italian family. A male isn't that type that has mental illness or struggle. It can look as a negative thing. Um, and that's something that we're hoping that we change in the future and get people more comfortable talking about, especially the males of the world. They don't have to have a certain ego of we have to be strong and we have to protect our feelings. No, you're you're a human, you have feelings too. You need to talk about it so that other people can talk about it too.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

I would say I was like a little different because like I always thought that John was just that's like how he was. He was like his own worst enemy, where he was just like a stress ball, like constantly like worrying about minor things. For example, which he briefly touched about when we were talking recording before this, constantly like Googling and being on WebMD when he had like a headache, and then I go in and I'm like, What's wrong? And he's like, I think I have a brain tumor. And I was like, What are you talking about? And he's like, Well, I was just on WebMD, and WebMD said this, and I was just like, I would just shake my head and be like, you know, you're you're dumb, like and and just like not think about it, and then just like go about our day. I I do feel like he opens up to like Steph or my mom like a little bit more. So like that was news to me. That's what shocked me. Just trying to figure out how I can assist, like, especially being in a different state, and um what I can do, whether it was just like a phone call every single day, and just like trying to get him to open up a little bit more about it.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

And I think that's a good point, Ray, because we were all living in different states at that time. John was in Nashville, Ryan was in Massachusetts, I was in New Jersey with my parents. So we can talk and call and text as much as you can, but he often put that persona of like everything's okay and we can't see him, you know. So I think relying on FaceTime and being really in their face about what is going on and making sure you have a presence to see their world, even just looking at the space of their house. Is it clean? Is it are they living in disarray, picking up on signs like that? That was definitely hard. And we could see a difference being in the same state or the same household now, um, because we're able to have more visibility into the day-to-day. But I think Ryan was right, with that disconnect of all being in different places, that is very easy to hide how someone is feeling.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Also, when I was living with him, so before before COVID happened, like a week before COVID happened, he was living in Nashville. I always tried to go down there just because like we're all so close, like we can go to each other and talk about anything, and it's like no problem. Me and him are nine-year difference. Me and Steph, I think, are like three or four, and like that doesn't mean anything, you know. So going down there, and we went down there for I think like a week or two, and then that ended up turning into like six months because COVID happened, the world shut down. My mom, she worked in the hospital, she MRI tech, and she she called me. I was supposed to go back to school for uh spring season football. So they're like, you know what, don't even come home, like stay with your brother. I'm sure your brother loves your company right now, just stay there, hang out there. You're probably having more fun down there anyways, and coming home and seeing like what mom's going through and like having to worry about, well, am I getting am I gonna be getting COVID? And then I won't be able to go back to school and all that stuff. So I think I looked past a lot of things, and like, don't get me wrong, he had a very good mask that he wore because like we were just constantly joking about things, and like we were in a studio apartment, so it was just it was like a crazy time for everybody. Like him not getting a haircut or shaving his head is like I didn't think about it because I wasn't getting haircut. His his space is a mess. Well, it's because you know I'm kind of a slob too. Well, no, he's not a slob, but I am a slob. So am I the problem where I'm like messing up his space, you know. So I didn't I didn't even think about that. And it's just like a lot of times we were just like having a great time, and just I got to say it was pretty relaxing COVID for me. Like we were going shopping and we were having fun when we were able to go outside, and like we looked ridiculous ridiculous with the masks on and the gloves on, going shopping, and then coming home, we're watching TV shows and watching Hell's Kitchen, and then trying to like reciprocate being a chef on Hell's Kitchen. So, like, I don't know. I think we were having a really good time at that at that point. He did put a good mask on, and I look past a lot of things just because the situation with the world at that point in time. So I would say that was just like a all of that combined, that was just a shock for me.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

You also have to think if you weren't there, Rye, what would his life have looked in a lockdown, in a studio apartment, in a city by himself? Um, I think that was definitely a saving grace having Ryan be there. And then that opened up the conversation of, well, we just went through this whole lockdown. We went through a we just went through a pandemic. Um a lot of mental health things came out of that. Um, and I think it gave an opportunity for everyone to start talking about things. So I I don't know if that's how it came out after when John was finally getting his diagnosis and letting our family know what was going on. But I I do often find myself thinking about, well, what if Ryan wasn't there? What would we have done? We were in a lockdown, we couldn't travel. How would we have gotten to him? How could he get into a hospital? How could he get help? Those are all things that you or we really worried about.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

OCD is a chronic disorder. As long as John has had it, as long as I had it before diagnosis. I mean, I rarely meet with anybody that has not considered suicide or been suicidal or had an attempt. Were you able to take that part seriously? Just how serious OCD is chronic despite him wearing a mask? And two, what was it like finding out about the kind of content that OCD has? Sexual, violence, things that are shameful, things that are taboo.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Yeah, I think, like I said, um once we found out and we were doing our own research of what it is. I didn't really know at that time there were different forms of OCD. I think I was trapped in that world that everyone thinks of OCD is perfectionism. OCD is I like to make my bed or clean up my kitchen or make sure my handwriting is perfect. And now we fight to the nail that that is not OCD. Like I can I hear it every single day. Oh, I have OCD because I like things organized. And now we're at that point of speaking up and being like, no, that is actually not OCD. OCD is XYZ. It's something so much bigger, there's different forms. But at that time, I think we just we just really didn't know anything about it, but we were just willing to get to a resolution, whatever that looked like. We just wanted to jump in and help as fast as we could and get a plan in action because I know that he was feeling so bad at that point, and I didn't, I was scared of what could happen. You know, we were doing our research and looking through articles and things like that, and he was telling us things, and it was just hard. I think for me the most important thing was just getting to a resolution. That that's what that's what it was. I I wanted to learn as much as I could about OCD, but at that point when we were going through everything and trying to get him help, that wasn't my priority. It was like, let me just get him in a safe space and then I will educate myself about it and figure out how I can support.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Building on top of what Steph said, like I it's it's like a product, I guess, of society where it's like you hear someone say I have OCD, and it's like and you hear it often, just like, oh, if my closet's not clean, like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm doing a certain way because I have OCD, like that's kind of what I like thought of just because it's constantly what I heard, and I've never really had a conversation or dealt with anybody that actually had OCD, you know. So when I got when I got the call because I was getting ready to go to the police academy, I think, kind of just getting the update, like, hey, you know, your brother's coming home, he's not doing well, like mentally, he's we're trying to figure out what's wrong. And when they originally told me it was OCD, I'm just like, oh, you know, I could I could see it. Like John's, you know, he's a clean freak, and like he's you know, he's very hard on himself. So like I can understand that. And like I'll be honest, like, I like just trying to keep in contact with him and like be keeping in contact with my mom, sister, dad, what's going on, like how's he doing? And it's well, you know, he's we're gonna try a different hospital because he didn't, you know, he didn't like this one, or like the services weren't good here. I was like, he's like he's going to a different one? Like, what's going on? I think it really hit home for me when I like got to New Jersey and I saw him. I'm like, Jesus Christ, his he's got a full head of hair now, and like his beard is down to his chest. What the hell is like what the hell is going on here? And like looking into OCD and like the category of like a professionalist OCD, I I think that that is OCD. People people struggle with that, and it's like I think he has that as well. I don't know if there's like multiple people can deal with multiple categories in the list that you sent me, John. I did take a look at some of them. I'm like, yeah, that that can that can that fits him a little bit, you know, here over here. So like when people do say like, oh, I have OCD because and it's like they say the most minor thing, but they actually don't have OCD, like now, now that really pisses me off. I understand now that this was a serious thing and what people were going through and how like he could be suicidal and he's thinking about these things, like it really bothered me.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, and we wanna we wanna change how people are using the word in conversation. And I often find myself thinking like, okay, should I say, Oh, have you been properly diagnosed with OCD? Or do you actually know what OCD is, or is this a preference? But then I stop myself in some situations because I could be at work and I'm like, well, is that offending someone? What if they turn around and say, Yeah, I've been diagnosed for it? Then what do I do? I just don't know how to usually bring it up in conversation. But Ryan and I've been saying we just want to get people more aware that it's it's not a preference, it's much larger than that. And yeah, a lot of people could be struggling with different areas of organization or their space or their home, and it could raise their anxiety. But like I to me, I feel like it is you cannot use that word unless you are diagnosed with it. And a doctor is giving you that and you are working towards like a resolution or um health and going to therapy and doing things like that. I do want everyone to hear us and take those societal norms that we've made over the years and really change it. But like I said, the change is not gonna happen if you don't keep speaking up about it. If you keep hiding in your shell and keep your mask on, never gonna make an impact.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

I think it's really important to see that it doesn't have to be just individuals living with OCD speaking out and changing the stigma. The more we talk openly about it, the more people are gonna feel like, hey, this is just a disorder. I I can't help but that I have intrusions about killing my family or having sex with my family or whatever else, you know, these really embarrassing topics are. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yeah, and I I will say all the stuff that you guys do, and when we share the men's mental health posts on social media, I can't tell you how many people reached out to me being like, oh my God, your brother is going through this, or oh my god, he's speaking out. This is so great. Like, we need to get this out more in the world.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

So, like I keep saying while I tell them like hide that post.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, he says that, and I'm like, no, I will pay for a billboard to put it on a highway. The more people that see it, the more change you're gonna you're gonna do in the world, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Uh John, I want to get to you because I think this is this is interesting because you even just countered her with hide that post in a triad of siblings to get to a place where if we look at this from a lifespan development perspective, every family has a system. Typically, in in a family system, sometimes when these things happen, there is a shift in how the equality of the siblings are viewed. Sometimes that shift can go to the identified patient. Sometimes, like mentioned earlier, oh now you know I feel like a mother, I kind of want what was that shift like for you? Was there a shift or had you always felt kind of different because of the symptoms, which a lot of people do? But then when the diagnosis came out, there was this point where you were in this vulnerable position of needing help from brother and sister, mom and dad. What has that done for you in the triad of siblings?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

It definitely was easier when I didn't have to open up about this because they didn't know if I was in my room Googling for hours or on Reddit or watching videos or being in a depressive state, right? Like, you know, it's very easy to put on a mask and act like you're okay on the phone and and whatnot. So I think like maybe the distance made it easier for me to like kind of like take that part out of a relationship. Um and I think part of that comes down to the fact that I'm the oldest and I feel like I have to protect these two, and like for them to have to take care of me is like a like a fear of mine. I'm not a vulnerable person, like I don't open myself up easily to to anyone. It definitely is hard. What led to me kind of going through this whole cycle was I stopped my antidepressants and slowly. I started noticing the depression coming in really heavy. I wasn't getting out of bed. I was having to force myself to go to work. Like just crying all the time. Feeling like death would be easier. And like I didn't want to tell them because it was just like, you know, it's hard to ask for help for me. Like I don't I don't know why, but that's just how I'm wired. So it was easier to just like kind of make a joke out of it of like, oh, this is what I was going through, or like prodding them to be like, at the time, harm O CD is like what really caused the spiral. Simultaneously, it was harm O CD and this fear of like schizophrenia, losing my mind. So it all had to do with this idea that like if I took medicine or if I was around them and I went to sleep, that like in the middle of the night I was gonna wake up and harm them. It would be out of my control and I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. And then it leads to like the thoughts of your whole what like you just imagine yourself in like a jail cell for your entire life, and you're just like, What the fuck? You know, like this is like not who I am, and you're like fighting it, and you're trying to like convince yourself that this is not who you are, but it's hard when I was really broken down. My parents were like, get on a plane, come back home. And when I got on the plane, the funniest thing that I that sticks out to me is I hate flying, I have a fear of flying, like it's just always been a thing. That day, I was like, this plane could go down, and like like that's just how I felt. And I remember getting outside to the car. My mom and my sister picked me up because Ryan was in Massachusetts. Like, I mean, I think I like was I didn't want to give them too much at that time. I think I was like, Oh no, I'm fine, I'm just sad, like it's okay, like we'll be fine. But then as the the next day was my birthday, and I just remember being like, Okay, I need to go to the hospital. So I went to the hospital and I was like sitting there. They they didn't know what to do. It was still like it was it was at the time when people were still getting shots and vaccines, so like the hospital was still a mess. I just sat there for a couple hours, and then they gave me like they asked me if I had bipolar disorder, and I was like, no, uh, you know, I've been seeing somebody for OCD, and then they were like, Okay, well, we're gonna give you this antipsychotic, okay, and then let me home, they let me go. And I get home and I and I distinctly remember like my dad, because my dad doesn't know how to handle this, like he's never, and I don't blame him for it. Like, it's something new to him. And he's like, Well, are you gonna be okay? All I could just say is, I mean, I don't know. The next day, which like I didn't really sleep that night because I was nervous that the new medication was gonna like cause me to like lose my mind. The next day, I I don't know if you remember this, Steph, but I I just remember like sleeping most of the day, and then I went downstairs and I ran into Steph and I just like fucking lost it. Like, I was just like, I need help, like I don't know what's going on. We went to my one aunt's house, and my aunt was you you need to go to this this place, which is like a specialist for for mental health, like uh a hospital, and that was just traumatizing in itself because that's when they like left me sitting there for hours and they kept me overnight and they put me next to an inmate sitting next to, and like you know, the inmate could have been there for for whatever reason, but like to me that was just like oh my god, like I'm on the same level at this point. Then they picked me up the next morning, my parents, and I still like I had no solution. I had no solution, didn't know like really what to say to anybody, and like Ryan had come home at that point. I fucking love bagels, and he brought me a bagel, and I don't know if you remember this, Ryan, but you brought me like a breakfast sandwich, couldn't even eat it. I was just in the I was a zombie, I was in the show. It was hard to let my family see me like that because I know they wouldn't judge me, but like it's it's just this feeling of like, oh well, here's the black sheep of the family, we don't really know how to deal with this, and like that's not how they were at all, but like in my mind, it was like this just ruined my relationship with all of them. And there is like a rebuilding process when it comes to like harm OCD. I think there was a lot of times where I felt like I was trying to separate myself from the family because the intrusions just seemed to be a little too intense when I was around them. Thankfully, like I went to Rogers and the amount of therapy that I had to do. I mean, I was a zombie, but it worked to some level, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

But also, Rogers explained to us I think it was Rogers and through your therapist explained to us you need to be involved, your family, your siblings, your parents, you need to be involved as much as you can in this too. Here's resources and ways you can help. And I remember after all of this and going back to Nashville, and he's going through Rogers, and I think I talked to a therapist at that point, and uh it was like, you need to not give him the reassurance that he's looking for. If he's gonna say to you, Well, I'm going to die, my heart is racing so fast because I just ate that cheeseburger from McDonald's, he's gonna sit there thinking like he's gonna die of a heart attack in the next 30 minutes, and you have to be like, Well, you might die. That that is the reality. We do not know that. And not Google or anyone can tell you that that is gonna be your future. Like you just have to wait and see. And that made him so uncomfortable. That was really hard as a sibling to do is I want to just tell him everything's gonna be okay. I can fix this for you. Like, we can go out and do this, and we can avoid all of these thoughts that you're having, and just everything is gonna be okay. But that was very hard of like, you cannot do that to him. And often my mom and Ryan and I were talking about this today. Ryan and my mom are just easy to be like, John, everything's fine. Like, stop thinking about it, stop Googling it. And then he comes to me and I'm like, I don't give a shit. It's not okay. It may not be okay, it might actually get worse, but you're gonna have to sit there and figure out how you can navigate it. So I think the balance of giving that tough love has helped us. But he knows for a fact that he will not get any reassurance from me. And we're we're planning and hoping that I think Ryan is actually doing that too, but I think it's most hard for my mom because as a parent, you wanna, she just wants to fix everything and make everything okay. Once he went into Rogers and we found out about the harm OCD, and like he talked about about being afraid that he's gonna hurt us in the middle of the night, he came home wanting to lock every single door and barricade himself in that room. And I was like, nope, this is an open door policy. Ryan came up and brought one of his like he found samurai. A samurai story.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Well, so yeah, I again what Steph said, she she's the tough cookie, and like Rogers was awesome because whoever John was working with, she made sure that we were obviously we were going to be involved, but she she made sure that like if we ever had a question, like we can give her a call and and she can answer any questions that we had. Me, like it was it was a learning process because I was trying to understand like what I could do to help him and being that crutch for him, like he was pretty smart. He knew he knew not to go to Steph. He knew that if I call my brother or if I call my mom, they'll be able to tell me that everything's okay. And it's just like it's just me being like, what do you mean, John? Like, everything's gonna be fine. You're good. And then it I thought that I was helping him. And after I got off the phone with the lady, she's like, no, like I understand where you're coming from, and you're being like a good brother, like trying to make him feel better, but like he needs he needs this like pushback from you more than ever. And and she like provided she provided us with different exercises that we can do to like help him with his own harm O C D, like samurai samurai sword or a knife. I John is not a confrontational person. He is never like physical, you know, like this was just brand new to me. Where when we were when I was like home for the summer or I was in high school, we would get into like I think we've only got into like one or two fight like actual fights in the living room. Next day, he would be the person like coming to me, like apologizing with concert tickets. And the next thing you know, we're at a country concert. It was just, you know, so like this was all new to me. And it's what do you like? What do you mean? Like you you have this vision that you're gonna you're gonna like stab me, like or something. Like so I took I took the you know exercises, especially when I was home, and I go into his room and be like, Go ahead, do it. You know, I put a knife on his bed and go, fucking stab me, do it. And and he was happy with it. He was like, No, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not doing that. And I was just like pushing him to get him out of his comfort zone. And I remember him like he had me like in like a headlock with the knife up up against my neck, and I'm like, just do it, do it. And then it took him like a couple of like just until he felt like comfortable, and like I was like, all right, enough's enough. I don't know, John. Maybe you can comment on it. I think that helped him, you know. We have a group chatter family and getting text messages from him where if you ever have that thought of harm, text us, tell us.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

When it was like really, really bad and new, when he went back to Nashville, I ended up flying out with him and he started the Rogers program there. And I remember that was a really tough few weeks. And he came back and he was like, We're in this one bedroom apartment. You go in the bedroom, I'll sleep on the couch, lock the door, blah, blah, blah. I was like, no, absolutely not. So, again, like Ryan did, we went in the kitchen, I said, Here's your knife. Like, if you want to do it, do it. So that was really hard for me because not that I was scared. I that didn't even cross my mind. It was he was just crying and absolutely breaking down because he was like, How could I see him in his head being like, How could I even think of doing something like this? That action of being like, here's a knife, here I am, you're saying you're gonna hurt me. Well, just do it then. So that was really, really hard. I think, like Ryan said, I think that needed to happen, and he needed to actually do like a physical action to be able to understand all these exposures and just kind of get used to that.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

I want to touch on two points, just like kind of that we like talked about. So the first one was you know, I think I did open up a little bit more to Steph than Ryan. And I think partially that is because of the masculinity thing. Like, in a sense, it's harder to talk about that kind of stuff because you don't want to seem weak. Like, and I think that's what was going through my mind, even though my brother wouldn't see me like that, it's just is uh a reality that like some people will see you in a different light if you talk about it. So I guess Ryan, in a second, because I'm gonna say the second thing, if you want to talk maybe on that, like what you would say to like people who have brothers that like one's diagnosed and one's not. I I guess, and if that's a worry, like fearing that you're gonna look weak, like what kind of advice would you give?

SPEAKER_03 33:32

I don't think it's a weakness at all, and like the masculinity thing is just like all BS. I feel like it bothers me that I'm not like informed about what's going on. If I call Steph and I'm like, Oh, hey, what's going on? It's like, have you talked to your brother? I was like, No, what's what's up? And especially if just got off the phone with you and nothing is said, why is he still hiding some stuff? Or why does he feel like he can't talk to me if he doesn't tell me these things? So, like, I don't know if it's just that I look back and it's like, Am I could I be doing something better of assisting, or like, also I feel like Stephanie obviously just I understand the masculinity thing, like Stephanie's probably a lot easier to talk to with my profession. I I deal with mental health crises every day. Like I work in a city and I'm constantly dealing with mental health crises. And like, do I know everything? No. What I always resort back to is I I think about like when my brother was going through it and how can I help this person get back on track or get the appropriate resources that they need. I think of how like other officers, you know, may not view mental health calls as a big thing because like we deal with it a lot. At least for for me, I treat it every single time as just as important of a call as it is. I would want that officer or that EMT to be treat that person just as how I would want my brother to be treated. I guess the way that that you could potentially work on it as a sibling whose whose brother or sister is not really reaching out to you is constantly checking in. And how are you feeling today? Maybe or like I I feel like I don't do really a good job with it because if he doesn't say something to me, like and then I find from like Steph or or my mom, maybe he doesn't want to talk about it with me. And like I don't want to stress him out even more, you know, if especially if he's gone through some hard times. So this is a good conversation, John. To you know, something that we could potentially both work on. I I don't view somebody weak at all, you know, just because they're going through something because I do feel like our society is changing where a lot more people are speaking up. By speaking up, you're changing that norm.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

And then I guess Steph, this this could go for both of you, but I guess with me, uh one of the biggest uh issues that I had was like just sharing uh the theme because you know you're still not comfortable about it. Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

And like, you know, that's pretty ti I just want to say that that's pretty typical for for people, essentially it's not for every like this doesn't apply to everybody. One theme tends to kind of take them down, put them in the position that John and I both were in, where we were just hanging on by a thread, considering death as being better than life. I won't say that everybody is this way, but typically moving forward, there's always this fear that what if it's not OCD, even though I know it's OCD and got treated or whatever. So sharing the theme is very stigmatizing and very shameful. What if people believe that this is who I really am? Even though we've both had effective treatment and we both can logically say it's OCD. When these themes come up, I could go to John and be like, well, sexual orientation, and he'd be like, Well, maybe you're gay, you know, or whatever, not we could that could be okay. But for those people that don't have OCD, sharing the content of the deepest, darkest theme that puts you in the lowest point of your life, it's very shameful, no matter how long it's been since you've had treatment.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

I'm sure it's uncomfortable too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Well, it's more of just like this feeling of if I open up too much mind with harm, right? Like in the beginning, I think it was more intrusive in the sense that more imagery and faster thoughts and whatnot. Like now it's pretty much remains at this idea of this fear of losing your mind, right? Like when or like losing control. Even that personally, when that happens, I feel like a threat to them and I feel disgusting with myself and I feel shame and and whatnot. In my mind, like I'm convinced, and I know that it's not true that I don't know how they can look at me the same.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

And it's the opposing side. I guess we're both battling the same thing. You're having these thoughts of how can they look at me normal? And where me and Ryan are like, well, why is he thinking he's anything less of how we know him? We can't even understand the communication that both of our brains are thinking, which that opens your eyes to a lot of other conversations.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

I I guess it was more along the lines of if somebody is feeling that way. I I think you've answered it in the sense that, like, if somebody's feeling that way, like, like as somebody who's on the other side of it, like what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Well, I think his experience now opened up a lot of doors because I'm finding out, like I said before, a lot of people in my life are struggling with OCD. They're seeking therapists, but their therapists may not be qualified in OCD, and they don't realize, like, oh, I might have to go through five, 10, 15 therapists before I find the right one. And I always say, My brother spent 10, 15 years going through therapists, and he didn't even get his diagnosis until he was in his 30s. So I think having that open line of communication of being like, you have to put the work in, you have to do the outreach, you have to find the support groups. I send your support group all the time. I'm like, go see game changers, watch this YouTube video, go to this conference. There's an OCD walk now that we did last year. We missed it this year because of the weather.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

We want to do the one in Boston.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

That's that's something that I want to get out doing. I'm passionate about that. Just trying to find as many resources as possible. And the whole basis of this conversation is just always speak up. Stop keeping everything to yourself. I know things are hard and challenging, and you may not feel comfortable talking about it. But like I said to Ryan today, we don't have to always have the answers for everything. We could just be that listening ear and just say, just tell me everything you're thinking. And do you want me to give you my opinion? Do you want me to give advice? Or do you want me to just sit here and listen? I think that is the easiest way to have conversations um with someone struggling.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Although Steph could be mean.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

I can't be very I really can. I don't sugarcoat.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

No, when I was when I was like really struggling, they put me on like uh um a new medicine. I think it took me three hours to go to convince myself to take it before Steph was like, you're taking the fucking pill, and we're gonna do this together, and it's gonna be fine. Because I was just convinced that any kind of medication was just gonna alter my brain.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I think one of the things I'm taking away from this conversation is just how lucky John is, or all three of you are, that you have a relationship where whatever it when things happen between the three of you, you got each other's backs. Yes, not everybody has that, um, which is great now that there's other resources out there, like the community and support groups or something. I always say, if you don't have family, come join my family of people that get it. I think the interesting component uh that was said was what prevents sometimes Ryan and John from talking to each other, and then what prevents the understanding of John not wanting to tell people about thoughts and Stephanie not understanding why John doesn't want to tell y'all about the thoughts because he's worried y'all think differently. Shame. The primary emotion. OCD in general, which is why we wear the mask for as long as we do. It takes what, 12 to 17 years for someone to be diagnosed correctly and treated. And then the content creates such a degree of shame. The takeaway is what are what are the how do you abolish shame in relationships in order for all parties to feel like you're on the same page and it doesn't change the dynamics of the relationship? And John, you said something earlier, rebuilding relationships after diagnosis, after treatment. That isn't normal for every relationship, whether it's sibling, whether it's parental, familial, or spousal. But I think that this conversation kind of exemplifies what a lot of us go through when there is that breakdown and then the rebuilding phase. So I want to give you all the opportunity to do kind of some final thoughts, maybe something you learned in just having this conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Well, I just have a quick question. I'm curious if like thinking back to 2020, and obviously it probably spanned before that, but 2020 when you were in lockdown with Ryan and maybe wearing that mask, how you were feeling, versus then you went into the whole coming back to New Jersey and going back and forth to Rogers and getting support from your family to then living on your own and going through law school again, and then now you're back in New Jersey with family. Like, do you do you see the evolution of how you progressed? And do you obviously like do you feel like you're in a better place now and more understanding and more comfortable? Or do you often feel like you do sometimes still have that mask?

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Oh, sometimes, yeah, sure. I think even though like I know you guys are all keyed in, it's like I don't like the idea of like me being helicoptered. I think a big fear is like that if something happens in your lives that I won't be keyed in because I don't think that you keep down. I feel like maybe you don't think I can handle it because I've I have anxiety, which I think is kind of far from the truth because I feel like when there is stuff that kind of can go into that clear emergency mode and do things. You know, being home temporar temporarily right now, it's always interesting because I feel like harm comes and goes. And like I think being more accessible to like parents and stuff, just being under their roof. Like, if I am in like an OCD spiral, it's like all those old feelings come back up. That's hard. I feel like I could get triggered a little bit more. But I think for the most part, I mean, when I'm not dealing with anxiety and spirals, I I can see my progress, but I also know that there's a lot of work because because I I haven't been able to accept the idea that this is a lifelong thing. I don't know. I I just I I think like I'm at the point where I feel like this disorder definitely affected things in my life, relationships or the idea of thinking that okay, if I ever settle down, being in the living room with somebody watching TV, right? Just having you know, if I get Married and just having this crucial thought of my wife, how am I gonna be it's almost sitting next to you now? It's kind of this thought of how do I look at you, or like how do I not think that you look at me differently? And I think that's gonna always be like a work in progress, and it's just it's a sad reality just because I didn't ask for this. It's like I get that this is a disorder, I understand that it's always kind of feels like a call when I'm in the middle of thinking of it.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

But what you said about you're sitting on the couch with a partner and trying to figure out how to navigate thoughts in a relationship or a marriage, well, you're not gonna be with someone that doesn't support you and understand you and has that open line of communication. Um and I think that's important. But I think that is something important that you need to be open and honest about with people because again, you don't know what they're struggling with, you don't know what their family or friends or coworkers have opened up to them about, what they've seen. And you can honestly wean out the people that are not meant to be around you versus the people that actually do care about you to your core, but you just have to be comfortable opening it up and educating. Yeah, this is all about education. This is my theme is education.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Well, and I think today it also shows that communication is needed. I mean, what I'm hearing John say is that there's fears of being seen differently, and most of us with OCD feel that way, whether it's from our family, from society. I know one of the things that helped me, and I know it's helped you, John, so I'm speaking for you a little bit, but when you have a support system outside of everything else of people that have OCD, that brings you this sense of self-concept and esteem. Of I have this whole community over here of people who get it. I can say whatever comes out of my mouth and they accept it. And you bring that back to the people that don't understand. That doesn't mean that there are two separate relationships. It's just that with OCD, because it's ego dystonic, you just kind of have to have other people in your life that get it because you feel so alien to everybody else walking on the planet that doesn't understand.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

I like see so many differences now versus, like I said, when it was 2021 and Rogers, we felt so secluded and we were like the only five people dealing with this. And now, like, we just I see him out talking on these podcasts, and I see him doing these lives and his groups, and he'll talk to his friends about it, and he'll talk to people that I know about like his experiences, and I'm like, oh my god, look how far he's come. What is the next 10, 20, 30 years? I keep telling him, you are going to change the world, you have to. This is all for a purpose. Yes, you may not like that this has happened to you, but you were given this path for a reason, and it's because you're so strong-willed and you're going to change so much in the world.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

So, Ryan, for you, what can you take away or what what what's changed for you and as as we've had this conversation?

SPEAKER_03 47:04

Oh, I I would say, like, obviously, like this is definitely super beneficial. I mean, um having the conversation is super important. Even I learned some stuff that he he talked about that like I didn't I was not aware of or um at that time. Learn some new information. I do hope from this conversation, you know, we can build on it, and you can feel like you can come to me and that whole masculinity thing, it's like I I completely understand it. Obviously, I'm here, you know. So uh and obviously that goes for everybody. Anyone that's listening, the biggest weakness is just keeping it into yourself. You know, you gotta have that conversation and reach out to your support systems. And if you don't have anybody, obviously, there there is there is someone that will be able to help you, you know. Game changers, obviously. I I think I think this is definitely gonna progress, and and I should be hearing from them more. One other thing that I would say with law enforcement is there's just tons of law enforcement officers who it goes back to that masculinity thing where if they're part of a profession and it's mainly males and they have that like tough guy persona, like a lot of them don't speak up, and uh there's an unbelievable rate of officers who are just killing themselves, just speak up and say something. And like if there are law enforcement officers who are listening or a part of game changers, like definitely go to Chrissy, or they need to get in contact with me who I only know a little bit of information, and like clearly communication is a big part with my brother and I. I'm doing everything that I can to like help out. If you'd like to speak, I mean I know what you're dealing with and the calls that you're going to, and like those hard calls that you're you're seeing things that normal people don't see that just builds on top of what you're dealing with. It's just it could be a lot. So, you know, if you need to get in contact with somebody, you know, Chrissy, you know, gladly give you my information.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Well, thank you, Steph and Ryan, for doing this. Yeah, you know, I thank you and I appreciate you know your support. And I'm gonna work on some things that we talked about, which was this was a cool exercise, you know.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Um, but you know, I love you guys. I'm I'm fortunate to have you. So we love you too.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

Love you too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Thank you for all of your work. Chris's an honorary member of family. Yeah, I think I am no.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Thank you all. I think this is gonna be helpful. Understanding OCD, not just from John's perspective, but from a family perspective, is ongoing. It's fluid. I've had OCD for 40 years. I've been in recovery for about 30 at this point, but I can John knows this. I can continually learn things and get better and learn how to communicate with people in my life about how to treat me or how to talk to me about OCD. It's just a natural progression. Many thanks to all three of you. It has been a blast having this conversation. Thank you so much for being here and unmasking with us today. I didn't really know how to end the show because, in all honesty, the recording continued for probably another 45 minutes, so I had to find a way to edit it and to make it sound somewhat coherent at the end. We had such a good time recording this. I think we all learned a lot, and it was just so inspiring to see this family be so supportive. I hope this episode was helpful for you. It was really fun to record, and I know it was helpful for all three of them to be able to talk these things through. And that's what it's all about. Communication, sharing things about what we live with with OCD, and sharing things about what it's like to be a partner, a spouse, a sibling, a parent. I hope to bring more of these episodes to you where we're talking openly and just having a good time discussing what it's like to live with OCD and interact with the people that we love. If this podcast supports you, inspires you, or helps you feel a little less alone, I'd love for you to support it on Patreon. Your monthly pledge helps me to keep these conversations going and create even more resources for this wonderful community. You can join us at patreon.com slash intrusive thoughts unmasked. And remember, when you're here, you do not have to wear the mask. I want you to feel seen, understood, and accepted exactly as you are. See you next week.